We’re excited to introduce you to Peter Boychuk, Senior Producer of Picture Post, at HARBOR. Peter has worked on delivering such features as, The Irishman, Little Women and Ocean’s 8. In this post he shares what it’s like running a DI department, what a typical day is like, what makes a good DI producer, as well as what DI workflow was used when he helped deliver the Disney+ streaming production of Hamilton.
Los Angeles Post Production Group: Hi, Peter! Thank you for sharing your time with us. Before we dive into your work as a Senior DI Producer, can you tell us how you got interested in film?
Peter Boychuk: For 2nd grade show & tell Travis Pastrana brought in a video of him riding a dirt bike – I think that’s when the subconscious seed was planted for my interest in “things outside of the box”. In my early teens, I was super into skating, and was pretty obsessed with the old-school VHS skate videos that were around at the time. I’d follow my buddies around Buffalo with my parent’s camera trying to mimic what I saw in the latest Hoax or VG releases. I wanted to edit our own videos together, but at the time, it was pretty tough to get access to video editing software, so I stuck with stills. Shout out to Uncle Jimbo, our family photography guru – he always let me mess around with his latest gear.
I ended up moving to Connecticut when I was 15 and our High School had a Video Art class, which rekindled my interest in shooting and editing. Mom and Dad said goodbye to their most recent video camera purchase, and I started running around with a camera again making ridiculous videos. Once I hit college, I signed up for any Film related courses that were available, purchased a DVX100 and Final Cut Studio with some help from my Dad, and set out to score an editing internship with an alternative sports company. These ski guys out of Denver were cool enough to give me a shot remastering some over their older flicks to DVD – time to learn how to design, encode, and author DVD’s! There weren’t too many internet forums around at the time, so the manual was really my only source of how-to information. I delivered those 2 DVD masters, but I’m pretty sure they became coasters – hell of a learning experience though. I started my own key-turn LLC when I graduated college shooting and producing instructional videos and weddings but was still flying solo and decided it was time to get my foot in the door somewhere.
LAPPG: So it looks like you worked at Deluxe Digital Studios and then Technicolor- PostWorks NY before making you way over to HARBOR where you worked as a DI Producer. Can you tell us about this role and what it entails?
PB: For any DI Producer, you’re pretty much quarterbacking each project that runs through the facility. You’re the main point of contact for internal and external teams that could span multiple facilities and vendors, and it’s your job to make sure it all comes together on the picture side. Generally, you’re managing overarching post schedules for the project, keeping internal operations inline, understanding workflow and color pipelines, defining vendor and studio needs, tracking budgets and actuals, and juggling creative needs – which usually spans multiple features, maybe an episodic, and some smaller projects you might be supervising.
It gets intense, but I dig it. Reminds me of slinging pies at Naples Pizza on a busy Friday night when I was a younger. You learn to move fast and mold that chaos into productivity.
LAPPG: Now you’re making me hungry! Well, it seems that congratulations are in order on your in your recent promotion to supervising DI’s at Harbor. How have your responsibilities changed?
PB: High-five, thanks! Right up front, responsibilities became a bit more global – helping assign projects, juggling multiple post schedules, and keeping an eye out for the entire Harbor team became part of my daily agenda. With a lighter producing load though, I was able to start a deep dive into what our DI Producers deal with on a regular basis and begin to dissect and tweak our approach a bit. The main goal is to dial-in workload balance and maintain efficiency, so our Producers don’t get tied up in certain time-consuming undertakings. Every project has common needs, so we’ve isolated those common operational and technical preparations which can be a heavy lift while you’re producing multiple DI’s. Aside from supervising where needed, it’s been fun to sit back and observe how someone tackles a task, then take that approach and maybe tweak it a bit or present it to the team so we can make it an official part of our ecosystem. It’s all about defining and maintaining a common structure for how we work.
When you’re in the trenches, having someone with a broad view of what’s going on is crucial, so I’m thrilled to have the opportunity to use what I’ve learned over the years to help out our fellow Harbor producers.
LAPPG: What does a typical day look like for you?
PB: Let’s go pre-pandemic on this one, because honestly, I miss the bike commute to work and the daily bodega ice coffee. Don’t get me wrong, I love wearing sweatpants to work every day, but there’s something nice about a morning routine in the city before you dive into the madness. All jokes aside, working remotely has also proven how strong the Harbor team is as a whole, so I’ll take it both ways.
I’ll hit the ground running early to make sure we don’t need to put out any fires that popped up overnight. After that, I’ll knock off any emails that need attention and check in with my early morning operators to make sure they’re in good shape. If a supervised session is on the books that day, that’ll be my main focus, making sure that’s teed up properly and everyone is well informed and prepared. The team will dive into our morning Producer meeting, chat daily schedule and needs, and then everyone breaks off to manage their own day. Each day can vary wildly, but I’ll start to tackle certain things like…
As a Senior member of the team, you’ll jump in and advise other producers if needed, get looped into operational and technical conversations, and help refine day to day interactions across neighboring departments. The producing team will regroup again at the end of the day to dial-in swing shift needs and schedule out the upcoming day.
LAPPG: You’ve worked on so many high-profile projects such as The Irishman, Marriage Story, Tiger King, and Little Women. One that jumped out at us is the recent streaming Disney+ production of Hamilton. What challenges were you up against for this project and what workflow did you use?
PB: Hamilton was in the works for a couple of years before I jumped into the producing chair. We were finally gearing up to finish the DI onsite site, but the pandemic forced us to pivot quickly, and we moved to a full-blown remote workflow. Hats off to our talented engineering team for moving the entire team offsite in record time! Hamilton ended up being my first remote project, so that was a logistical challenge in itself. We were initially going to finish via projection in DCI P3, but we pivoted to a 1000nit grade for the streaming release. Modern color pipelines allow you to be display flexible, and our color managed workflow made that shift totally seamless. Overall, we had to plan our time wisely and remain highly efficient, especially when running remote sessions out of multiple facilities on both coasts. Solid communication across all of the teams involved was top-notch, and we were able to successfully deliver everything to Disney.
LAPPG: How is a DI department generally staffed and what is the hierarchy in terms of how the work is broken down?
PB: Traditionally you’ll have the following departments – Color & Assists, Conform, VFX, Data Management, Digital Lab, Engineering, Scheduling, Billing, Sales, Leadership, Client Services, and Producing.
HARBOR has always focused on staffing folks who are proactive, creative, independent, and thoroughly knowledgeable of every step in the DI process, so we run a bit of a hybrid model compared to the above breakdown. All of us manage projects holistically throughout their entire DI timelines, allowing for single points of contact and subject matter experts on each job. Keeping an open mind and focusing on solutions rather than the traditional red tape allows us to move freely and efficiently in seeing the creative vision through to a successful execution and delivery.
Ultimately, it’s all about supporting our Clients and Artists. Sure, we have a hierarchy in place in to ensure maximum coverage, quality, and oversight, but it never feels that way with our team. It’s a collective effort with lots of high-fives all around.
LAPPG: What are the traits and skills you look for when hiring a DI Producer?
PB: After a couple years in Post, I began to realize that I enjoyed living in between the industries technical and creative factions, so I look for folks who can bridge that gap and bring everyone together. That inherent quality of being able to manage and maintain a massive to-do list under pressure is key, and you can usually pick up on that trait when you have a conversation with someone. I’ll always prefer hiring an individual who’s a good fit personality wise and spend the time teaching them the ins and outs of the job in the field.
LAPPG: What advice do you have for people who are working up the ranks like you have?
PB: Be curious, ask questions, and strive to be the hardest working individual in the room. Most importantly though, be a genuine person and try to be the nicest person in the room too!
If you’re just starting out, look for any position that will allow you to get your foot in the door at a post facility. You’ll get full exposure to a multitude of post-production departments and people, and if you work your butt off you can climb your way to the top.
LAPPG: How involved are you in the pre-production stage of a project?
PB: Depends on the project, but if we’re doing the Dailies and/or Finishing, we’ll get involved early for sure if the door is open. Best case scenario – you have the opportunity to solidify geometry and color pipelines before they hit the record button. It’s kind of like a reverse puzzle sometimes – you identify the hero deliverable and work your way backwards from there.
LAPPG: Is there a project that really challenged your team to find a creative solution? Did it change your later approach to projects?
PB: Project Pandemic has been one hell of a challenge. We’ve been creating, innovating, and adapting for almost an entire year. Looking ahead, I don’t think we’ll go back to the way things were, so when the dust settles, we’ll get to implement what we learned about remote workflows and offer that as an additional creative solution for HARBOR projects. “We are where you are” sums it up well.
LAPPG: What principles do you follow for running a smooth DI producing team or keeping a production on track?
PB: Open and honest communication is #1 for me, whether that’s with your internal team or external clients and vendors. Managing expectations, look after your team, work you’re a** off, and if you’re not 100% sure you know the answer, keeping asking questions until you’ve got it just right.
We’re all in this together, so no matter how tired you are, stay focused and keep a smile on your face knowing that once you wrap that project up, someone will be there to buy you a cold beer.
LAPPG: We always like to check in and find out how people find a balance between a demanding work schedule and family/home life. (Aside from the fact that we are all home now! Are there things that you enjoy doing that allow you to decompress and unwind?
PB: Hanging around with my partner in crime Stephanie and all of our four-legged furry friends. Goofin’ off with my nieces and nephews – Smush, Turkey Man, Russ the Bus, and Parker. Random roadtrips, face-melting metal jams, visiting breweries and pizza joints, and weekend hikes help to unwind a bit too. Gotta play cards with Grandma for sure – she’s an absolute shark.
Jay Miracle has been a longtime member and supporter of the LAPPG. In this interview he shares some stories from his incredible career working with such legends as Francis Ford Coppola, Milos Foreman, and George Lucas plus, he offers our members and readers some of his strategies and insights into the documentary editing process. We hope you are inspired!
Los Angeles Post Production Group: You’ve had an incredible career in filmmaking having worked with so many of the great directors of our time. How did you find your way into filmmaking?
Jay Miracle: I feel quite lucky that I was able to get into filmmaking.
I was fortunate to get my start in the film world when I moved to the Bay Area in the mid-70’s and I just happened to be in the right place at the right time. I was an art major at UC Berkeley and working with my sculptor teacher/mentor: Peter Voulkos – who was well-known for redefining large-scale ceramics as an art form. I worked with him in one of his foundries doing metal work, but I had a day job as an art installation assistant at Berkeley’s University Art Museum.
I used to hang out at Swallow Café on the ground floor, which was directly opposite a tiny theater named the Pacific Film Archives – that I ignored for months. One afternoon I noticed a poster for a “Screening by Artists-Filmmakers” at the Archives and decided to check it out. The show featured experimental films by Bruce Conner and other artists. The films were on a double bill with some movie by a Swedish guy named Ingmar Bergman: “The Hour of the Wolf”. I’d never heard of him and I thought he was maybe the father of Ingrid Bergman.
The movie was a total shock: I’d never seen anything like it, and fell in love with the possibilities of cinema. I instantly volunteered to work at the Archives. I immersed myself in all types of movies and virtually lived there every night, and by chance happened to run into Eleanor Coppola who was involved in an art installation project at the museum.
Within a few weeks, I was an apprentice assistant editor on “Godfather 2” and worked for the editor Peter Zinner. It was daunting, but exciting to learn on the job. It was an amazing time for filmmakers like Francis, and I got to study every scene and actor through my hours of reconstituting thousands of trims and lifts.
There was also the time-consuming task of trying to lip sync Lee Strasberg – because he had a weird mouth tic and speech pattern that made it nearly impossible to sync up.
And I must have gained over 10 pounds in the first few months, because one of the main scenes we worked on was the cake-cutting scene in Havana. We recut that for several weeks. I’d reconstitute those shots and study the trims over and over of that incredible cake getting sliced and eaten. The subliminal seduction worked: every afternoon I’d wander around North Beach on lunch break, looking for cake!
LAPPG: What were some your early filmmaking experiences that impacted you most?
JM: Since I was hired through Paramount Pictures in L.A. and the local San Francisco IATSE 16 was in the middle of a labor dispute with Francis, I didn’t get screen credit, but it did get me a job as an assistant on “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest”. That was an amazing creative journey. By far, the most impactful experience to me as a filmmaker and editor was working with Milos Forman.
Milos’ directorial style for shooting “ Cuckoo’s Nest” was more aligned to a documentary shooting approach. He allowed Jack Nicholson and the extraordinary cast: Louise Fletcher, Danny DeVito, Brad Dourif, Christopher Lloyd, et al, to have improvisational freedom, and we kept shooting and reshooting for days. This was a low-budget indie at the time, and yet we had over a million feet of film to edit. The final shooting script was this humongous bible with tons of multiple takes – often where the dialogue was completely different.
So, the editing process was daunting but Milos spent every day ensconced in the editing room. He had to supervise every single cut. These were the days of 35mm, where editing was done on Kem flatbeds, with tons of bins and massive reconstituting work that took hours to assemble and rebuild. Physically cutting 35mm was quite slow – and it demanded enormous patience for anyone who was just sitting in the room and watching. You’d think of a simple cut or an elaborate edit, and then have to wait for five minutes – or ten – or forty minutes – or whatever – before you could see it.
It was not a fun event for visitors. A lot of Saul Zaentz’s friends and investors would wander in and drift away almost immediately. I remember Milos’ girlfriend at the time: Aurore Clement, brought another friend with her who was a famous Madame from Paris (Suzie W.). She showed up at the editing room with an entourage, wearing a wild gold lame pantsuit outfit that had a 20-foot train attached to it. They managed to last about five minutes.
Milos was obsessed with every aspect of post-production and quite brilliant at editing. I learned a tremendous amount about timing and structure from him. He had this innate ability to look at a scene, or scenes, and would often suggest a one frame cut or a frame addition to an edit. I would be amazed numerous times when he would suggest “just take a frame off the outgoing shot, and add one frame to the incoming shot,” or whatever combination. This was a splicing nightmare– removing and splicing one frame – one 24th of a second. I used to think that “a frame edit” was absurd: really? Would that have a major impact? It would surprise me how often the shift in timing would make a tremendous difference.
These days, we’ve all become dissociated from that visceral experience of handling film at 24 frames per second – and we often blast through cuts without the nuance of breath or attention to facial details. Milos was all about the face – the most subtle details and expressions – often those moments before or after they said their lines.
The most fun for us was our weekly meetings, where we’d all go over the cut and get to critique the movie. I felt for the first time that my opinion and input were valued, and we had a tremendous team of collaborators.
I was still attending Berkeley after “Cuckoo’s Nest” and managed by luck (there just weren’t that many people in feature post in the Bay Area at the time) to get involved on “Star Wars” as George and Marcia Lucas’ assistant.
Both Marcia and George were incredible editors, and we all shared editing rooms in their house, which was an amazing collective experience. George went through many ups and downs. The film would go over budget at times – but then the British pound would be devalued or some other event would impact the budget. There was a constant uncertainty, and we had no idea about the future.
One aspect of my job was to spend hours studying all the original Flash Gordon TV shows, because we cut some of the shots into the temp edits as a motion pattern for the Effects people. If you want to be tortured, screen all the Flash Gordon shows in a row – they endlessly reprise all the previous episodes at the beginning of each program.
At one point, when there was a lot of pressure from the studio, George would hunker down back in his garage and spend meditative time building a small wooden storage desk that fit under his Kem.
No one had the slightest idea of what would happen to this movie, nor how this would be received once it was released. We would have these crew lunches at the house, and I remember one particular guest who amazed me with his observations – and who would help shape writers and filmmakers for some time: Joseph Campbell. Undoubtedly, the mythic structure of “Star Wars” will permeate our zeitgeist for generations.
LAPPG: What is it about documentary filmmaking that attracts you to it?
JM: I started working on documentaries after “Star Wars” and discovered an entirely different world of challenges in production and post. I loved the uncertainty and difficulties around creating a story, building an emotional arc, and delivering a message.
I was still inhabiting the Pacific Film Archives almost every night, and at the time, every major filmmaker from around the world would come to show their films. I was heavily influenced by the German new wave: Fassbinder, Herzog, Wenders, Silberberg, etc. I met another Archive denizen there: Errol Morris, and began collaborating with him on the production of his documentary: “The Gates of Heaven”.
At one point, early in the production of the documentary, Werner Herzog challenged Errol that if he ever finished his film, he’d eat his shoe. A year later, after one of his boots was simmered for a week in a special sauce, Werner got up on stage at the UA Theater and ate it.
I’ve always had incredible inspiration and admiration for filmmakers like Herzog and Wenders – who move so effortlessly and without ego between feature films and documentaries.
There’s nothing more compelling and challenging than figuring out how to deliver an effective documentary. There’s no actors, there’s usually no repeat takes, no script, none of the usual safety nets of scripted work. I think documentary editors are the creative powerhouses behind documentaries – and yet they are the least appreciated.
LAPPG: What strategies do you use during a documentary edit?
JM: Whenever I take on any documentary project, I always search for a hook beyond the information or message that the film is about. I try to find a protagonist with whom the audience can hang their emotional hat and follow along for the journey. Of course, any great documentary needs to deliver a powerful message, but it’s a bit more challenging to convey an impactful message with just facts, or flashy effects or graphics. I feel my main responsibility is to find a strong, emotional arc throughout the piece. I’ve always felt that viewers watch with their heads, their hearts, and their guts. The head is constantly downloading data and assessing, but if you can find a way to powerfully connect to the latter two, the head will come along for the ride. When I see projects with a ton of data and graphics, or endless talking heads, I tend to tune out, unless there’s some deeper hook to it – so I’m always searching for that in my documentary work.
I also follow a basic formula, and I cannot stress its importance: follow the KISS formula: Keep It Simple Stupid.
If you’re presenting a story and somehow there’s a misunderstanding about the character, the topic, or the journey that you are on – the viewer will tune out. To me, editing is basically creating a flow: what follows from A to B, what connects B to C, etc. Does everything build and have a logical progression to it? If it’s audio and text driven – is it clear, easy to follow, and builds the story?
I often work with a radio cut of the audio on the first pass and refine the story to that. If the project is more vérité based, the challenge becomes more about discovering the story.
I will initially edit the sequences that resonate with the theme. I’ll assemble these and assign cards to each scene (just like assembling cards for writing a script) and build a breakdown chart.
You then become the writer and begin to align the cards to build the story. Invariably, I’m always looking for those scenes that deliver the most dramatic or emotional impact – the “trailer scenes” – because you’ll build around them.
Do the visuals have clarity and impact? Do they support the concept or the scene?
Sometimes I don’t have the luxury of a clear, story progression – sometimes I have to create something from a more abstract structure – where the synthesis of an idea is a visual or auditory progression of similar concepts. Sometimes I need to build a “parallel universe” that works as a metaphor. If there’s a hole or a leap in concept, audiences can follow along if you’ve built a solid base.
LAPPG: You won an Emmy for your work editing “Hearts of Darkness, A Filmmaker’s Apocalypse.” How did you get that opportunity and what was it like uncovering the behind the scenes story for such an iconic film? Can you tell us about a challenge you came up against and how you found a creative way of telling the story?
JM: When I was working on “Hearts of Darkness, A Filmmaker’s Apocalypse,” there were instances where we had no concrete visuals to propel the story. I came onto the project since I’d worked on “Apocalypse Now” and had some additional insight into the production and post. The initial edit had been more of a didactic behind-the-scenes breakdown of how the film came together. Like so many documentaries, after further review and discoveries, we realized we needed to include the deep, emotional angle of Eleanor’s notes and interactions with Francis.
After we discovered this, it became imperative to create an entirely different direction to the edit.
Her recordings became the visceral anchor that propelled us on the journey for the entire documentary. But the fun was finding out how to tie Eleanor’s thoughts to the evolution of the story.
We had lots of footage, but there were times when there wasn’t an appropriate shot.
As an example, there’s a moment where Eleanor is wondering whether the entire trajectory of Francis and the film would be a disaster. We couldn’t find a perfect visual, but we found a metaphor: a shot we’d discarded six months earlier as totally useless – it was a shot of some kids playing in a shoal. They launch a tiny, toy boat that floats for a moment, then slowly sinks.
Of course, now, many documentarians solve those problems through highly-stylized graphics, animation, re-enactments, etc. When we were editing “Hearts of Darkness”, our consideration was to find material that was organic to the time and the story.
LAPPG: What are you noticing about the documentaries of today?
JM: The evolution of the documentary form and the tools available to filmmakers and editors are extraordinary. And documentaries have continually evolved in story form. Today, many follow a traditional, scripted three-act structure, exactly like their scripted sisters.
I’m amazed at the level of subjects and the higher quality of story-telling in documentary filmmaking that comes out every year. But the bottom line to me is: everything revolves around character, story and emotion. My perpetual questions are: can I find, or create those elements.
There never has been a better time for working in documentaries because the viewing world has become much more sophisticated and engaged with the form.
Let’s all enjoy the adventure.
In this interview Terra Abroms helps shed some light on her role as Associate Producer (sometimes called a Post Supervisor or Post Producer), as well as tips for working with creatives, advice for keeping a post department running smoothly, and who to watch when you want to stay on the pulse of new technology and workflows.
TERRA ABROMS DISCLAIMER: Every project is different so this is just based off my observations and experiences in the business.
Los Angeles Post Production Group: Thank you for taking the time, Terra, to share some of your professional life with us. Can you start by laying out the post production playing field for us and where an Associate Producer fits in?
Terra Abroms: It’s important to understand post production starts in pre-production, not just after the cameras have finished shooting. I always make sure to connect with department heads in production before shooting. Depending on the project, we usually bring in the VFX supervisor and producer to consult as well.
The Post Producer, Associate Producer or Supervisor (depending on the genre) manages all of post like a UPM manages production. We create different budget scenarios with contingency plans, get bids, create schedules and follow through to make sure everyone has what they need.
Associate Producers are responsible for pulling together the post team, from the editors, AEs, vendors like post facilities, VFX, sound, the music department (composer, music supervisor, editor) through to QC and delivery. The creative positions require signoffs from the EP and studio – though normally these positions are repeats from previous shows. Remember this is a business of relationships.
We are liaisons between the creatives, production, the studio. On some shows we work closely with production to help make it happen once a budget has been signed off. This is a big team effort.
We work with the guilds and studios regarding credit issues, clearances, QC issues and delivery. Some of this includes creating closed caption versions, broadcast scripts, clearances, getting needed materials to marketing, added value and international.
LAPPG: What is on your Pre-Production Checklist?
TA: This is a partial list of my pre-production checklist, as every show is different:
- Read scripts and notate.
- Create the budget and schedule (you can’t do the budget without the schedule).
- Review the project’s delivery items (such as DNxHD175x, Audio stems, etc).
- Bid out show to post houses, VFX, sound and equipment vendors.
- Confirm workflow with the Dailies post vendor, production keys.
- Have a VFX meeting prior to the production meeting to establish how VFX are handled (what is green screen, etc.) and when the VFX supervisor will be on set.
LAPPG: What are important traits for an associate producer to have?
TA: The most important traits are to be thorough, organized, resourceful and a good communicator…. with grace and a sense of humor. A knowledge of cameras and technical knowledge of the process definitely helps.
LAPPG: What advice do you have for running a post production department and making sure post production runs smoothly?
TA: Hire the most experienced crew you can who have the right attitude for the job.
LAPPG: What are your tips for working well with directors, creative producers and editors?
TA: John Singleton taught me the biggest lesson. He listened to everyone and made them feel heard. Everyone wants to be heard. Let the creatives know you will research any questions they ask which you don’t know and get back to them quickly. Have Plan B and Plan C but keep the budget constraints in mind. It’s really about having emotional intelligence, active listening skills and keeping everyone in the loop.
LAPPG: How has post been affected during the pandemic?
TA: I worked on Welcome to the Blumhouse during the pandemic. Post production is lucky in that we don’t have large groups of people working together like production. In the middle of March 2020, we literally packed up essentials and left our cutting rooms at Smart Post. We had been there for nine months. I cleared out the offices four months later.
We had to set up remotely immediately, so the editors and AEs had access to the material securely. Katie Fellion and her team at Light Iron helped us create a successful plan at every step of post.
Whether working on the cuts, spotting for sound, music and VFXs, having notes calls or setting looks with the DP, color correction and the mix, it happened using some wonderful tools like Moxion, Frame.io and even Zoom (combined with PIX). There are other great tools like ClearView Flex and Evercast for post to use as well.
ADR took a bit to figure out. Some actors recorded their ADR at home with the director, producer listening in (with an ADR kit we sent). Some actors went to ADR stages. The sound stages took safety and security very seriously. For group ADR we had the loopers record from their home stages on a video call.
LAPPG: As an Associate Producer (Post Producer) how have you seen the television industry change over the years?
TA: When I first started, I worked on both 35mm (Dazed and Confused, CB4, Wedding Planner, etc.) and 16mm (Hustle & Flow). Post production supervisors were a new position in the industry. My father-in-law, editor Ed Abroms Sr, used to remind me he used to do my job (book the ADR, sign the POS, etc.). He could do my job because editing with a work print took more time.
Working in film brought a different sensibility. Ed would reminisce how he used to dream of the scenes; when you ran the work print through a Moviola it was very tactile.
Soon the industry transitioned to tape.
And then in 2011 Japan tragically suffered a tsunami where most of the Sony HDCAM SR video tape stock was made. Post production was forced overnight to switch to a tapeless or file-based system.
Many may remember when everyone was talking about RED, ARRI and Panasonic P2. There were heated discussions about which camera was better.
As I just explained and to paraphrase, Frame.io’s Michael Cioni, historically crises bring about technological changes. This changed the quality of the images (solid state) and how we captured, transferred and edited video. Cioni prepared a series of 13 videos on the film industry working before, during and after the pandemic and beyond. Here’s one of the videos:
We are now working remotely with Avids in machine rooms and using a VPN lines for secure access. No more hard drives or shuttle drives. We are using tools like ClearView Flex, Evercast, Frame.io or Moxion to collaborate at home.
With tools like these, the post community has shown we can work from home and be (more) productive. I wonder if we will go back to offices? And how many years until cloud-based post production is fully operational?
LAPPG: What are some of the benefits of things you enjoy or appreciate about working in the post production world?
What I love about post production is witnessing how once the pieces have been shot, how the story develops and blooms under the guidance of a strong producer. Both Lisa Bruce (Welcome to the Blumhouse, The Theory of Everything) and Stephanie Allain (Hustle & Flow, Dear White People) taught me how to work with the filmmakers and the studio to support the creative process.
I also love the improved technology of cameras, editing, finishing and how this has enhanced storytelling. Billy Fox (Coming to America, Hustle & Flow) is an editor who is always embracing technology and exploring how to push the boundaries for creative results.
I try to follow what Michael Cioni, Joachim Zell and Leon Silverman – to know what’s on the horizon.
I feel the editors and post production creatives (colorists, composers, sound editors and mixers, vfx artists) are unsung heroes… because after all, they know how to build suspense, enhance our emotional stake, incorporate style and captivate us.… It is truly an invisible art.
Last year we had the opportunity of having colorist Andrea Chlebak (Mandy, Elysium and Chappie) speak at LAPPG about “Color in Narrative” where she discussed working with directors and finding language about color for collaboration as well as how colors and their opposites affect viewers’ emotions. We were so enthralled with her presentation that we wanted to speak to her further about her journey to becoming a colorist, the skills she thinks are important for a colorist to have, and the differences between coloring documentary vs. narrative films. So please join us as we introduce you to Andrea Chlebak.
Los Angeles Post Production Group: Congratulations, Andrea on the recent announcement that you are joining the team at Harbor! That is wonderful news. So what are you most excited for with this transition?
Andrea Chlebak: Thank you, I’m so thrilled to be joining this talented group! Harbor is all about elevating the art, science and creative experience of filmmaking – their values resonate so perfectly with what I have worked hard to cultivate in my career thus far. This is also going to be my first time working at a facility with sound and color under one roof; the opportunity to work alongside the artists I have admired for many years is also very exciting to me.
LAPPG: So now that we know where you currently are, let’s talk about where you started. It sounds like you started as a still photographer and an editor out of college. What was it that turned you towards working in the color field?
AC: I studied film and video in college, but when I ventured into the real world, I had no clue what role I was best suited for. Working as a stills photographer and editor helped me to get into the industry a bit and learn what fit …and what didn’t. After spending many hours on set as a stills photographer, I became disheartened by the local union culture and my initial dream to work in cinematography faded. I took some time to regroup, brushed up on Avid and After Effects and then veered towards post production. I started applying at VFX houses all around Vancouver and during one interview, the VFX producer asked me if I had thought about becoming a colorist – she thought my work appeared “too polished” given my level of experience. That internship was cancelled for the year, so I took an I/O job working in animation, and then after a few months, found another opportunity at a small post production company. At the time they were focusing on digital to film transfer, so I took the opportunity to learn as much as possible about that process, which involved spending a lot of time at the film lab reviewing prints with the color timers. Fairly soon after, that company expanded into a full DI offering and when they were exploring grading platforms, I was given the job of evaluating and comparing each one. At that point, I realized, “this is my chance to make this happen“ and fully committed to going after the role. I was lucky to have management and a team that supported me in my development and getting to grade my first feature film gave me a real-world, on the job experience that crystalized how perfect the fit was for me.
LAPPG: What was the transition like going from Vancouver to LA? We’re there any big surprises?
AC: I had spent so much time in LA in the years leading up to moving that it was a fairly natural progression for me – and luckily I knew a lot of people in the industry that helped me to feel welcome. While the move itself was stressful, I absolutely love LA and I felt the rewards so quickly career-wise. It came as a surprise to me however, how much more open and social LA is compared to the somewhat ‘cool’ personality of Vancouver. The ease at which conversations and connections happen in LA comparatively was almost shocking to me. From a work culture perspective, it was just like changing companies really – although it did take a bit of getting used to being a part of a team that included over 40 colorists!
LAPPG: What are your best practices for remote color sessions? Any advice you would give to those trying to do this?
AC: Remote sessions have obviously been going on for many years, but the pandemic has definitely pushed me to adjust my approach more than before. In general, I have always found it a good practice ahead of remote sessions, to take the time to connect with the cinematographer and director beforehand to understand the vision, the inspiration and the challenges. My most successful remote collaborations prior to the pandemic, have been ones where I’ve been well integrated with the creative team for many months, have had many conversations about the intent and then most importantly, have had time to develop a language with the filmmakers by sharing and discussing our views and exchanging visual references.
Remote sessions are also most successful when you have a rapport and are able to provide the same kind of collaborative experience as you would if you were in the room. Since nearly all of the process needs to be remote during a pandemic, I have been adjusting the type of work I do supervised and have gotten a bit creative with the schedule by identifying more specific goals for each remote session that keeps our time together fully engaged. For example, I block out more unsupervised time ahead of my sessions and then space out the remote sessions in order to focus them in review and experimentation. I also think, especially now, that full day sessions remotely are exhausting and not as productive, so booking shorter time periods and then also allowing more breaks to connect and discuss has been helpful. I personally appreciate having a few cameras in my space, to give the filmmaker a bit of that in the room experience. Although I have still done many sessions using only audio, I have found having video available to turn on here and there to connect throughout the session, or in some cases have lunch together and talk as you would if you were together, is a small way to keep the original vibe of a grading session. With Covid, people are more used to using video calls, but it’s also very important in my work to be able to keep communication open and create that relaxed atmosphere that enables the best work.
LAPPG: You worked on a lot of interesting projects this year including A Babysitter’s Guide to Monster Hunting (Netflix), Bad Hair (Hulu) and An American Pickle (HBO Max). Can you tell us about your experience like of doing color on An American Pickle?
AC: An American Pickle starts in the early 1900s with Herschel Greenbaum (Seth Rogen), a struggling but upbeat laborer who immigrates to America to build a brighter future for his beloved, growing family. One day, while working at his factory job, Herschel falls into a vat of pickles…where he is preserved perfectly for 100 years. When he emerges in present-day Brooklyn, he connects with his only surviving relative, his great-grandson Ben (also played by Rogen), an easygoing app developer. The story is about the pair’s attempt to bridge their 100-year gap and reconsider the true meaning of family.
An American Pickle ended up being graded over about a 6 month time period. For the grade, I was lucky enough to work with both DP, John Guleserian (Like Crazy, About Time) and Director, Brandon Trost, who is also an extremely talented DP (This is the End, The Disaster Artist). Since the film takes place in the past and also in “current” day, we first focused on the initial visual inspiration for the film in establishing those 2 major looks – one for the early 1900s and one for present day. The 1900s story was shot in 4:3 frame and with a vintage lens (Petzval) that really gave a distinct look, and when it came to color, John gave me a number of references from the early color film days and also a hand-colored film look he thought would be most fitting – we experimented with a few different palettes and eventually narrowed in on a softer filmic look we all liked. We then spent a bit of time with the current day story, which was much more subtle in terms of grade, but it also needed to have a style and palette that would connect back to the 1900s look in some way. Having Brandon and John both involved at that point was a treat, as it was like having two DPs at all times! It sounds possibly challenging, but I loved working with both of them and hearing their stories from set as well as their different viewpoints. We were able to try a variety of looks bouncing different scenes off each other, and then, again narrowed the modern day look. Once we had the major direction in place for both time periods, our DP left the process to shoot another film, and the director, Brandon and I spent the remaining weeks refining the palette and style– we ended up reaching what we called a modern storybook look. Because the pandemic lockdown hit right in the midst of the film, we did bridge our process over a hiatus – that hiatus allowed for a bit of a recut as the film was picked up by HBOMax and we had the opportunity to revisit the film and comb through to refine for the subtle changes that were made between the first and second final cuts.
LAPPG: How much of your job is creative vs. technical?
AC: I like to think that color grading happens at the crossroads of art and technology – but I do think my work is mostly creative. That said, getting to this place has involved a lot of technical training and a firm understanding of the technology involved at every step of the process. I also am constantly keeping myself up to speed with what is new in technology – but I admit it is always in service of the creative, if a new process or innovation has the potential to improve or deepen the creative experience, then I am all in – but I really try to break out the overly technical or tasks in my work, giving dedicated time to both critical thinking and intuitive artistic flow.
LAPPG: What are the most important skills for a colorist to have?
AC: While the eye for color is obviously important, I would also say people skills are an extreme asset. I think it’s important to be able to communicate and read the room so that you can keep everyone engaged and on track. Being in tune with the energy in the room, knowing when to take breaks or change up the focus can absolutely elevate the work and bring forth new, more refined ideas.
LAPPG: What are some of the challenges of working with a huge budget and what are some of the challenges of working with a smaller budget?
AC: I think when you are working with a large budget, the expectations on speed and quality of work are very high, which is a challenging contrast. Bigger budget projects sometimes have more creatives on board, so there are more reviews, and that comes with more last-minute changes. I often aim to lay a strong foundation of the look and main creative direction upfront so that I know what to do when new scenes or shots are dropped in late in the game. Small budgets have similar challenges but, time for grade is often a lot shorter on smaller budgets – either there are less grading hours in total, or less lead up time – so the creative work is often compressed leaving less time for any experimentation or contemplation.
LAPPG: How much of your work is done with the DP?
AC: It really depends on the project. Some teams designate the DP as the main supervisor for color, and others it is the all the director – I find that I typically get the combination of the two, where we work all together and then individually – I find it really fruitful when there is a solid foundation of trust between DP and Director, so they can seamlessly hand the baton throughout the process and we can work in both mindsets. In most projects I have had the chance to be a part of, the DP is there for about 75%-100% of the grade.
LAPPG: Who usually gets the final say in color decisions?
AC: Another situation that is very specific to the project or team dynamic, but I rarely have seen a film signoff without the director. Even when the DP is there the whole time, there is always a director signoff – and if there is ever a conflict in ideas, it is the director who typically makes the final decision (even if it is to agree with the DP).
LAPPG: What tools do you prefer to use?
AC: I learned to grade on Baselight and I built my layering style and approach using that platform, so I am very much aligned with that grading tool. In the last few years, I have also used Resolve for a variety of reasons, from colorist collaboration to specific client workflow requirements. I also grew up on the Adobe suite, so I will still use Photoshop, After Effects and Lightroom on stills if I am working offline to collaborate virtually or experiment with crazy ideas.
LAPPG: What do you recommend to someone just starting out in the field?
AC: I always tell those asking for early guidance, to study, study, study images. When I say that I mean, to truly learn about photography, sculpture, lighting, painting and cinema. Even playing with photography as a means to understand how you see the world can really help you define your unique offering. I push this idea first vs learning how to use Resolve or grade and then copying some look you really like. I’ve seen a lot of younger colorists do wonderful imitations, but I think going outside the medium for inspiration actually tunes your eye to color much faster – and gives you a much bigger sandbox to play in later on. Along with that, I think it is really important to learn how the peripheral processes work – conform, VFX, color science and editing. When I started as a colorist, I conformed my own projects and also mastered them to their final formats, I have worked in VFX compositing and lighting as well as even titling and layout– I have so much respect for my colleagues, and my knowledge of their role (ie where we overlap and where we do not) allows me to build on my collaboration style, and in turn, be a better colorist.
LAPPG: What types of projects stretch you creatively?
AC: I would say that documentaries really push me to find meaningful uses of color. As docs usually film over months or years, footage can be quite varied in format, style and content. I’ve always been so honored to work on documentaries, but I usually get very emotionally invested in them – which makes for a lot more tears in my grading suite than usual.
LAPPG: How is your approach to coloring a documentary different from the way you would color a narrative?
AC: In some ways the approach is similar, but the timing or pacing is just a bit different. With a documentary I find that I spend more time with the overarching meaning and message, trying to really refine that for myself and then addressing any challenges the filmmaker has in communicating ideas – establishing that upfront helps me intuitively work through the film and grade for emotional impact. With narrative film, we spend more time upfront exchanging and aligning on inspiration, and then working that into the film in an organic way. With narrative palette and thematic use of color is often solidified right at the beginning, if not before the grade. I think with documentary, color themes reveal themselves more towards the end, after the more challenging work of matching or integrating is done.
LAPPG: If you weren’t coloring film what do you think you’d be doing?
AC: That is such a funny question to me, as there have been so many things that have led me to where I am that I sometimes cannot find the spot where a different road would have split off. I would say that if an AI program took over the color grading process tomorrow, I would probably take a leap into neuroscience and meditation. During this pandemic, I completed a training in meditation instruction, and while I mostly did that out of curiosity for how mindfulness can impact the brain and the creative process, I have found it to have profound impact on many facets of my life and would love to dive more into that someday.
LAPPG: What are the three most important things someone should think about/know when coming into a DI suite to work with a colorist?
AC: -Know that each colorist brings their own unique offering and approach, so to get a sense of what that may look like beforehand can be helpful.
-Understanding what a colorist can and cannot do is also helpful – understanding while color is in fact a visual effect, that compositing or painting tasks can be laborious and distracting to a color grade (i.e. break that time out in a different session).
-Be open to things changing or discovering a new look or palette, while coming in with inspiration, sometimes the material naturally goes in a different direction and it works better for the story.
LAPPG: What is a look development colorist?
AC: Look development is a process of exploring, creating and/or defining a look for a project. In some cases, it helps refine a look and in other cases it helps to produce a variety of directions that later become the obvious choice. A look development session can be either grading a selection from every scene of the film with the DP and Director, or on the opposite end of the spectrum, it can be just spending a few hours with camera tests to set up a look that can translate into a selection of LUTs for use on -set and in dailies. I build time for look development with all of my films, but in some cases I have been credited with that title, as for some reason or another, I was not able to finish the film as the final colorist. Most recently I was look development colorist on Watchmen series, collaborating with DP Gregory Middleton to set distinct looks as part of his process for setting up the visual language for the series.
LAPPG: How do you balance the stress of long hours in the DI suite?
AC: I don’t find my job very stressful weirdly – but the long hours can weigh on my personal life. I make sure to create mental separation when I put down my work each day so that I dedicate my downtime to family and catching up with friends. Meditation, yoga and spending time in the outdoors are all also restorative for me.
LAPPG: Has being a woman hurt or helped you in any way in the color world?
AC: This has become such a huge question for me, and I don’t know if I can answer it eloquently. In simple terms, I would say, both. In more recent years I’ve had the experience of being rewarded a film based on my gender – this coming from studios, productions and/or filmmakers themselves, becoming conscious of the inherent bias in our industry with the awarding of major creative roles, and therefore, making a point of choosing a woman to be the colorist even though we, when stacked up against our male colleagues, may not have perfectly comparable experience. I’ve heard many complaints about this, but to be honest, it is still far from actually tipping the scale for me. The legacy of the “who you know” and “how much have you done” is still very much alive – and because that is driven from an evolving, but originally a male dominated place, it has been sometimes difficult to prove hiring a woman is not a “risk”.
As a woman, I think there is a lot more proving of oneself whether technically or creatively or personally. I am more often invited to panels about women in film vs anything else I am qualified to speak or share about. While some may think it is a slight advantage these days with diversity and inclusion efforts being at the forefront of studios minds, I still don’t think women, Black, Indigenous or People of Color in this role has been at all normalized, and that reality makes it a disadvantage.
It is not that I feel directly victimized every day, but what a lot of people do not realize is, that for women who choose this profession, there is a lot of additional emotional labor involved -this all means less time for the actual job – or in most cases, more time working, which makes the cycle continue.
LAPPG: Do you see more opportunities for women in the world of color than when you started?
AC: I only directly experienced a lack of opportunity in the camera or VFX departments when I started – post production was really the most welcome entry point. But I do think that things have changed on all fronts for sure, and yes, I see a lot more women starting on this path that I did 15 years ago when I started – but I am looking forward to the next 15, and doing everything I can to normalize the inclusion of all marginalized groups in our industry.
It was wonderful having the chance to speak with longtime LAPPG member and presenter Bruce Logan. As you can already see, Bruce has done just about everything and is quite a legend in the film industry. In our discussion of his work and his 45+ year career, Bruce shares some insights into his inspiring career where he’s worked with directors like Stanley Kubrick and Joel Schumacher as well as making a pivotal contribution to a little movie called, Star Wars: Episode IV – A New Hope. If you don’t know Bruce, you’ll be glad you now do. Please meet Bruce Logan.
Los Angeles Post Production Group: You’ve worn many hats over the years. From VFX Artist to Cinematographer to Colorist to Director. Is there a role to you enjoy more and why?
Bruce Logan, ASC: Each job I take on I give 110%. I’ve been blessed with opportunities to develop many skills in the business. I wouldn’t say I enjoy one more than another. They all have aspects that I enjoy intently. I would say that I use different amounts of my brain’s RAM and processing power performing each function. Being a director uses the most and is the most stressful and therefore creates the greatest consciousness high. Being a DP and spending 12 hours a day making the image look great is aesthetically enjoyable and slightly less stressful, especially in the digital age. Editing and grading have a very different rhythm. I think they are “final processes,” meaning that you’re making final decisions, the last rewrite. It’s very satisfying.
LAPPG: With all of the technological changes from film to digital how has your creativity been impacted as a cinematographer, editor and colorist?
BL: Having grown up in a very analog age, life has just gotten more and more exciting as time goes by. I have totally embraced the digital age and won’t be looking back any time soon. Technology has made things possible that one could never have dreamed of when I started in the business. But please, enough with the drone shots! I don’t mind people shooting on film, if that’s what floats their boats. But a photo-chemical finish for me is just an undesirable indulgence. The film comes on-screen flickering. I cringe and slink down into my seat. But of course, like 3D, I don’t notice it after a while. But why?
LAPPG: Along with that you’ve also seen VFX change so much over the years from when you worked on Star Wars Episode IV in the miniature and optical effects unit to a film like Batman Forever. What has it been like having a front row seat to the advancements in cinema? And how did you blow up the Death Star?
BL: I guess that’s my other pet peeve with the over digitization of VFX. Yes, I marveled at the magical motion blur of the fast flying ships in Star Wars. And I gasped as the first dinosaur loped across the screen in Jurassic Park. But the total reliance on CG for effects in film somehow has an unsatisfying synthetic gloss. For me the uncanny valley runs much deeper in digital VFX movies than the latest youthification techniques like the Irishman. But CG VFX based on live-action footage are the most effective for me. I still think the last really great, full-satisfaction VFX movie is the original Blade Runner.
“Blowing up the Death Star” is my greatest PR coup, but was in fact very low tech. The “Zero-G” explosions were achieved by looking “directly up” at some very exotic bombs made by Joe Viskocil. Using a high-speed camera, we detonated the explosion directly above the lens. Voilà.
LAPPG: Tell us a bit about working for Roger Corman back in the day. Was the Corman film Vendetta your first directorial opportunity?
BL: I met Roger Corman at a cast and crew screening of a movie I shot for Peter Fonda called Idaho Transfer. There were no seats left, so Roger had to sit on the floor near the screen. He saw that I could shoot great images with almost no lights. He immediately offered me a movie called Big Bad Mama starring Angie Dickinson. Then his wife Julie Corman offered me Crazy Mama, which led to Jackson County Jail, then I Never Promised You a Rose Garden which was short-listed for Academy Award. Then producer Jeff Begun brought the project Vendetta to Roger. Roger green-lit the film as my feature debut as Director.
LAPPG: It’s been 34 years since Vendetta, and now you’ve directed the award-winning film Lost Fare. How do you feel you’ve change or developed as a director?
BL: Vendetta was truly my first directing job. When I finished the film, Roger told me… “Bruce, this is not a good film.” But I think after 4 years of Fox’s rating sweep week broadcasts and a current 3.5 stars on Amazon, it wasn’t that bad.
After Vendetta I directed 300 television commercials and music videos over 20 years. This is where I honed my directing skills. The discipline of telling a story in 30 seconds and mounting 300 productions and post productions was invaluable. With out these abilities, I could never have written, produced, edited and directed, Lost Fare, a 100K road movie with kids in eleven 12 hour days.
Lost Fare was a real labor of love for me. I was inspired by Rachel Reaugh’s devastating but beautiful story based on her abusive childhood. We wrote the screenplay together. Then I looked for an actor that could play the eleven-year-old heroine. Finding the incredible Alexis Rosinsky, I went ahead and made the film with producer and old friend Elliot Rosenblatt. Lost Fare is available on many platforms and has been streamed for tens of millions minutes on Amazon Prime. I’m really proud of the work.
LAPPG: I think you won Blackmagic Design’s DaVinci Resolve at an LAPPG meeting a number of years ago. Can you talk about what your experience was like editing and coloring in DaVinci Resolve?
BL: Being a self-taught colorist for the last 8 years with a copy of Resolve I won at LAPPG emboldened me to cut my movie in Resolve. I had to build a rocket-ship Mac Tower as I wanted to cut in 4K so that everything I did in the timeline was “finished movie.” I colored the movie as I went and then did final pass when all the VFX were in. I started in Resolve 12.5 and ended in 14. I was my own system tech so it wasn’t without a few sleepless nights.
LAPPG: What were you aiming for in terms of audio for this very dark and troubling story?
BL: I wanted to use as much real productions sound to give the movie a gritty reality. Unfortunately, I didn’t get great production sound, so Woody Woodhall, CAS had to dig it out with iZotope and reconstruct the natural sounds I was after. I’m super happy with the final track.
LAPPG: Everyone reacts to the fact that your career started with 2001: A Space Odyssey. What was your experience like working with Kubrick on this film?
BL: People ask me if I went to film school. I tell them I worked on 2001, A Space Odyssey. That was my film school. I was hired by Douglas Trumbull and he had the run of the studio. So as his assistant I got to do live action, miniatures as well as animation which I had been teaching myself since I was 12, and then doing professionally for three years. Preparation met opportunity and there I was working for the director I idolized. It was trial by fire in the hot seat defending my work in dailies with Stanley scrutinizing my footage for two and a half years. Phew!
LAPPG: You’ve worked on so many memorable movies like Airplane, Tron, Batman Forever, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas and one of my favorite favorites when I was a child, The Incredible Shrinking Woman. Can you talk about what it was like as special visual effects supervisor creating a giant world for tiny Lily Tomlin?
BL: The Incredible Shrinking Woman was an opportunity to use process photography, Front Projection and Rear-screen Projection to create all the VFX shots. This meant no VFX post schedule. Everything was done in camera as part of principle photography. This was probably of dubious financial value, as a 100 compositors working in a dark room is probably cheaper than a full production crew working an extra 8 weeks on stage. But it enabled director Joel Schumacher and myself to be very creative with our shots, and to see exactly what we were getting. Working with Lily was fantastic.
LAPPG: And it wasn’t just films that you were involved in back in the 80’s. How did you get involved producing a music video for Madonna?
BL: I produced Madonna’s second video Borderline for my friend Mary Lambert who was directing her first project for Warner Records. I remember I made it under-budget by not buying production insurance. Talk about stupid, but somehow I got away with it. Madonna was great. I didn’t know who she was at the time, but she did. And then we all did.
LAPPG: So on top of everything it turns out you are also a screenwriter! Can you tell us about the script you are currently working on?
BL: My new project is called God and Country. It’s about a Marine Pilot who is raped by a psychotic war hero, and is failed by the justice system. She takes matters into her own hands using her hi-tech aviation skills.
LAPPG: For a man who has worked in so many aspects of the filmmaking process and has worked with so many seminal directors what inspires you still at this point in your career and are you still racing cars and flying planes?
BL: Learning new stuff is always stimulating. Right now it’s learning social media to sell my movie. But really it’s writing great stories that turns me on.
Although I don’t really formally race, I do the occasional track day which is really racing against myself. My friend built a pro-simulator so I go over and race different tracks all over the world. And I recently renewed my old paper flying license for a flashy plastic one. It occasionally falls out of my wallet and starts a conversation. That’s about it!
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